the end of capitalism?

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GyGu
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Postby GyGu » Mon Aug 02, 2010 7:39 am

After reading all of these complicated justifications for certain types of faith I can't help but think of Occam's Razor.

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Mike McCusker
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Postby Mike McCusker » Mon Aug 02, 2010 8:32 am

torn_aclu wrote:

If we can be good without God, why do we need God?


Why can't you just be good for its own sake, and leave God out of the equation?

Surely if you are just being good to please your God, he/she/they/it would see that and question your original motivation?

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SkeletonRock
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Postby SkeletonRock » Mon Aug 02, 2010 1:15 pm

Emanuel Swedenborg said that there is no good outside of God, and that anyone who does good is experiencing God whether he is Muslim, atheist, agnostic, whatever.

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torn_aclu
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Postby torn_aclu » Tue Aug 03, 2010 3:58 pm

Mike McCusker wrote:
torn_aclu wrote:

If we can be good without God, why do we need God?


Why can't you just be good for its own sake, and leave God out of the equation?

Surely if you are just being good to please your God, he/she/they/it would see that and question your original motivation?


Because you can't be good for its own sake. That's what I have been arguing the whole time. Second, God exists and you can't leave him out of the equation.

If you know the story of David and Bathsheba (adultery, lying, murder, the loss of David's son) David confesses his sin in Psalm 51. David sinned against Bathsheba, Uriah, the nation of Israel, and others. Yet David says, "against you only God have I sinned." David's point is that ultimately, all sin is against God. Yes David sinned against so many others, but first and foremost against God because God is creator and judge. To be good for goodness sake (assuming you could) leaves God out of the picture when he is the one primarily we do every good or bad act to and for. To miss that is to miss the central aspect of Christian morality. If an act is performed to please God apart from doing it out of love for God or thanksgiving, yes God might question that.
Last edited by torn_aclu on Tue Aug 03, 2010 4:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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torn_aclu
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Postby torn_aclu » Tue Aug 03, 2010 4:14 pm

brothermatt wrote:this is the first time i've heard the "depravity" idea. it seems pretty nihilistic. wouldn't some of the motivation be to die sooner to get this world over with? if our actions are meaningless and we only matter if we are faithful, it seems like we're little more than god's poker chips.


Many Christian commentators including Francis Schaeffer think that there are only two options in the world: Christianity and nihilism (so Ecclesiastes). Schaeffer had an interesting apologetic. He would bring people to the breaking point of despair through nihilistic philosophy (help them see what that thinking leads to) and then bring the light of Christ in. Someone from this board went to one of Schaeffer's L'Abri communities. I forgot who that was. But yes as an unbeliever can look depressing from this viewpoint. It is very tempting to say that people who aren't Christians but find the world fulfilling in some way are jut forcing themselves to make life look this way when their undergirding philosophy in inconsistent with a happy life.

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mprovojr
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Postby mprovojr » Tue Aug 03, 2010 7:41 pm

torn_aclu wrote:I did say that the actions in and of themselves of people who are not believers are good. But I qualified it by saying that they aren't ultimately good. You are actually the one who is painting things in black and white by saying that an unbeliever who is faithful to his wife has committed a good act without qualification. That is profoundly simplistic.


Ah, good catch, torn. I see your point. But for the sake of communicating with people on their own presuppositions, "goodness" is something people understand—that innate morality that Lewis talks about in Mere Christianity. So, for someone who currently doesn't view the world through a biblical lens where God is central to existence and reality and goodness itself, to basically tell someone their "good" deeds aren't actually good, or call them outright sinful, just seems confusing. I could be wrong though... I haven't thought that through enough yet.

torn_aclu wrote:Anything that is not done by faith is sin, and you can't do something by faith without recognizing the trinitarian, covenantal God of Christian Scripture.


This is a scary thought, because even as a Christian, there are so many things I do that I have no clue if they are "by faith". I just went running... was it by faith? And then, people do a lot of un-Christ-like things, like bomb abortion clinics, "by faith" in their eyes... I guess that seems confusing. I see what you're saying... and definitely see how I tend to reason back toward Scripture, where you're reasoning from Scripture...

torn_aclu wrote:"Yes, "our righteousness is as filthy rags" as Isaiah says, but that applies to me too, now, even as a Christian." Where does the Bible say this when the Bible says we are clothed in the righteousness of Christ? The odd thing is that your turned that statement, "everyone's righteousness is as filthy rags" into "unbelievers can do unqualified good things." Confusing.


Sorry for the confusion: I just take that to mean that our righteousness—the things we do that are good—can't redeem us. They are still righteous or good. I feel like God is communicating subjectively in this sense, that from our perspective the actions are good. From His, when it comes to salvation, they are filthy rags. I guess I'm just trying to relate that to people who aren't seeing life through a biblical lens. To tell them their good deeds aren't good is illogical. To tell them doing good things can't redeem them to God makes sense, and that's where the need for salvation comes in. Maybe I'm taking that out of context or something... and I feel like we're kind of saying the same things just from different sides of the coin... or not.

torn_aclu wrote:If we can be good without God, why do we need God? Experience obviously has a part to play in our understanding of Scripture, but you let your experience totally determine it ("I see people doing good things all the time, so it must be true!"). That is a dangerous road to travel.


I didn't say we can be good, I don't think. I said we can do good things. Salvation comes to us through grace by faith and is not handed out as a reward for our good actions. We need God precisely because we can't fix the spiritual rift that has broken our connection with our loving Creator. Maybe that's semantics, but that makes more sense to me. I don't know how that meshes with the "whatever is not of faith is sin" verse, so I need to spend more time with that.
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mrpurplecat
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Postby mrpurplecat » Tue Aug 03, 2010 8:43 pm

SkeletonRock wrote:Emanuel Swedenborg said that there is no good outside of God, and that anyone who does good is experiencing God whether he is Muslim, atheist, agnostic, whatever.


Ohhh, a fellow Swedenborg enthusiast.

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SkeletonRock
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Postby SkeletonRock » Tue Aug 03, 2010 8:44 pm

mrpurplecat wrote:
SkeletonRock wrote:Emanuel Swedenborg said that there is no good outside of God, and that anyone who does good is experiencing God whether he is Muslim, atheist, agnostic, whatever.


Ohhh, a fellow Swedenborg enthusiast.


Thanks for acknowledging my post.

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soonersrule07
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Re: the end of capitalism?

Postby soonersrule07 » Thu May 21, 2015 8:47 am

remember when we used to talk about real things?
It's the last Noah's ark, so everything has got to fit.

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sherpa141
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Re: the end of capitalism?

Postby sherpa141 » Mon May 25, 2015 1:27 pm

NOTHING HERE IS REAL

soonersrule07 wrote:remember when we used to talk about real things?
Criminals are the people we punish for being a nuisance; artists are the people we reward for being a nuisance; successful businessmen are criminals disguised as artists.
-Adam Phillips

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ansible
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Re: the end of capitalism?

Postby ansible » Thu May 28, 2015 8:45 am

Strawberry fields?
when I was a boy
everything was right

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sherpa141
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Re: the end of capitalism?

Postby sherpa141 » Thu May 28, 2015 9:00 am

Criminals are the people we punish for being a nuisance; artists are the people we reward for being a nuisance; successful businessmen are criminals disguised as artists.

-Adam Phillips

zach2000
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Re: the end of capitalism?

Postby zach2000 » Tue Jun 09, 2015 7:46 pm

sherpa141 wrote:NOTHING HERE IS REAL

soonersrule07 wrote:remember when we used to talk about real things?


edit: buzzed post, sorry... totally unnecessary

I would like to soberly add, that I do remember that soonersrule07. Even with the anonymity of the web (is that still a thing?), real stuff can and has happened on web forums. Not everything has to have this cynical distance so prevalent in "the modern age." One thing I do know is: you can't force real.
Last edited by zach2000 on Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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soonersrule07
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Re: the end of capitalism?

Postby soonersrule07 » Wed Jun 10, 2015 6:32 am

found a link to an interesting article related to the original subject of this post.

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2012/12/the- ... the-black/
It's the last Noah's ark, so everything has got to fit.

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SkeletonRock
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Re: the end of capitalism?

Postby SkeletonRock » Fri Jun 12, 2015 12:20 pm

I rarely check this board anymore, but every now and then I do. I always find it funny odd to read posts I don't remember making. It's like a time machine of this other self. Very weird.


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